Episode 6: The AI Odyssey and the Friends We Made Along the Way

zane allyn (00:01.036)
Now we'll never be able to recreate that. Let's just say Goldblum is highly leveraged in Kimi three. That's that's the that's the takeaway. Goldblum, Jeff Goldblum is

greg carl (00:03.298)
No. That's this is why we ha we have to be recording all the time, bro. We need

greg carl (00:10.488)
Jeff Goldblum. when you think of frontier models, one comes to mind. It's

zane allyn (00:17.262)
I mean there's models and then the frontier, the frontier is where we want.

greg carl (00:22.388)
The frontier at the frontier, my friend. Yes, yes. Vibes is great.

zane allyn (00:24.91)
Still very underrated movie is vibes. Let's just let's just say there's another remake we're gonna do. We'll get vibes, but we'll do AI instead of the whatever the hook they had, the force. I don't know what they actually had. She was just

greg carl (00:35.802)
It was it really was the force without saying the force. It's like do you want to get sued? Yeah. It's the Schwartz.

zane allyn (00:40.694)
But it was It's the Schwartz.

That was quoted the other day while I was sitting around after mountain biking.

greg carl (00:50.778)
Hell yeah.

zane allyn (00:52.046)
So that's the thing about Ben. I don't know how much you know Ben, but Ben is a very logical guy. So when he goes into logic and then Brian's a lot like me and you and just throw out the occasional thing just to see if I throw you off. I know that annoys people, but we think it's fun. Anyway, Schwartz came up. he was talking about my my my fian or my wife's, you know, basically did the like sister's, you know, boyfriend's fucking roommate.

greg carl (00:56.107)
Mm. yeah.

greg carl (01:07.63)
Did a webinar with Ben and

greg carl (01:17.924)
Right.

zane allyn (01:18.572)
And we're like, what does that make us? I was like, absolutely nothing. And he's like, Yeah. We were excited. Ben's like, I'm trying to tell you a story here, guys. Like, yeah, we know. Yeah, we know. Yeah, we'll we know. We're making it for our fun. Anyhow. And that's attention deficit door, friends.

greg carl (01:22.426)
Stay on target. Man, we got it, man. Got it. Calm down, nerd.

zane allyn (01:39.31)
I don't have A D D, I just watch too much T V in the eighties and nineties.

There's that. There's that. Thing.

greg carl (01:48.77)
So tell me about the Odyssey. I think we gotta we should just go into all right.

zane allyn (01:53.741)
Yeah, do we already we have a we have a flow and I'll just keep up? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna I'm gonna throw it into that. It'll just be like a

greg carl (01:57.188)
So I I think we'll go Odyssey and j we'll like fade in and then I'll just like kinda go along to it and we can like the Achilles groundhog d w

zane allyn (02:08.718)
And then and then you're gonna do like

greg carl (02:08.877)
You know what, we should redo it again because see if people actually paid attention from the last one. And just do like the Achilles ground hall day then. No, I don't it's it's like thirty sec it's like a minute.

zane allyn (02:15.414)
redo the whole thing. Actually that's

You're talking about the Odyssey thing. Okay. Yeah.

greg carl (02:22.999)
Yeah, it's like a minute, minute and a half. I think it's good.

zane allyn (02:26.316)
Yeah, like that. How do we play on the whole Groundhogs Day? That's what these two episodes really are. It's just Groundhogs Day. Yeah. Come to the same conclusion. Anyway, all right. No, I was I was I was talking to my well no go go down the rundown. So I have it in my head. Sorry.

greg carl (02:32.003)
my god, every episode is the same. We just can't figure out how to get the fuck out of it.

greg carl (02:45.943)
No, so we'll do Odyssey intro. and then we can pivot that the one of two ways. We can either go to like the financial route with Moonshot and NVIDIA, or they we can then pivot it into the Gemini rumor mill that three dot five has not kept up and

zane allyn (03:03.938)
I like that. 'Cause then we can talk about Apple, right? Like getting late to the game. I don't know, I could throw that in there. Not are they late to the game. You know, so is Google doing the same thing?

greg carl (03:09.431)
Yep. And then open AI singularity. open AI singularity, and then the last two things was moonshot IPO 150 times. It's revenue. Is it really worth the same? We talked about it before with another aspect. Is there a bubble? Do we fear the bubble? And here's some evidence for the prosecution. my god, that alert is really loud, and I'm not configured sounds. Someone just texted as

zane allyn (03:39.342)
I didn't hear it, but clean

greg carl (03:39.565)
I feel like I have tinnitus. Holy shit. like I I saw my pupils dilate. It was like, holy shit. can't have that happen again.

zane allyn (03:47.791)
So I had to do that because I I'm on a signal chat with these these these Vanguard boys. And and it's crazy because there's people in Australia, New Zealand, England, Scotland, and then like the East Coast. And Joe and I are really the only I'm the farthest, right? I'm the moment West Coaster, and then there's Joe. And then and so it'll be all hours, right? Because it'll be like the fucking, you know, Australia's online and I'll catch the end of it, or it'll be early in the morning anyway.

greg carl (03:52.47)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (04:05.752)
Mm.

greg carl (04:13.57)
Right.

zane allyn (04:15.35)
And yeah, at first when I put it on here, it's just cling cling cling. And when they go off, yeah, if Falco's in there, so Germany's in there. I mean making noise on my you need to sh I mean, even on my phone, I've had to silence it. 'Cause I'll go in there to like write something and it's just like pop up, pop up, but get the get the get like Like I love you all, but shut the fuck up, like mute, and then I just lose out. And then you have to go through the conversation, like, Wait, you quit your job? Like, way to keep up, Zane. You know, then that's that's how that goes. And then I'm all old and anyway.

greg carl (04:42.121)
Mm.

zane allyn (04:43.938)
That's that's how that thing looks at. But yeah, but when I first did the mag and it was just ding, ding, ding, ding, and then I was like, What is that noise?

greg carl (04:49.411)
Fuck, dude. Tinnitus, for fuck's sake. All right. Got the old mech tennis.

zane allyn (04:53.048)
By the way, I gotta I gotta register.

All right, I think I got the run down. I'll keep up with you. to go to that trip to Portugal.

greg carl (04:57.529)
You gotta r you gotta register? What the fuck you talking about?

greg carl (05:04.456)
zane allyn (05:05.454)
Hey man, you write some blogs. They send you to Europe once a year. I just got asked to do a presentation there with the marketing boys, so

greg carl (05:11.329)
Is it for to be a Vanguard?

zane allyn (05:13.87)
Yeah, Vanny here. Annie. Which I have taken many pictures and taken them places and they're like, cool, post it to his X account. And even the shit Vanny gets, I can't I just can't. I can't. I go in there and I'm like, my god. It's just bad. The whole thing is just bad. Like there's no good place to live on X. Yeah, I said it. I said it. And I'm an investor in that whatever that monster that we made.

greg carl (05:15.858)
greg carl (05:29.559)
There's this racist bird again.

greg carl (05:34.903)
It's accessible. It's accessible. It it I'd say blue sky n it's all it's all shit. It's all shit.

zane allyn (05:43.052)
Yeah, we all thought Blue Sky would work. Remember Blue Sky was just complaining about X for a while? I'm like, we're kinda st they kinda still we're still we're living rent free in their head now. What what am I here? I don't care anymore. I'll just do signal chat with people I like. And then we go to Reddit.

greg carl (05:48.653)
Like is that?

greg carl (05:54.851)
Yeah.

zane allyn (05:57.711)
Is that a fun place to be? I thought, well, maybe Reddit's the place again. I was talking to Mike Nelson about this the other day. He goes, but it's just people like, just here's my facts. Like I'll did my research. my God. I don't know. And it just looks like a message board.

greg carl (05:58.286)
Which is it's your kid's new fortune.

greg carl (06:08.665)
Did own research. Yeah.

greg carl (06:17.655)
I felt like I failed my son a little bit. I was I was had to drive him work one day last week. I just got his get his truck work done. And I was like, What don't maintenance you get done? He's like, Well, you we'll get tar rotations, bark plugs, and I'm gonna have him change the transmission fluid. I was like, Your truck's new, man. It's a new Santa Fe. You don't do that anymore. I was like, I was like, How'd you come up with this list? I'm like, was it on like the recommended for fifty thousand miles? Like, I did my own research. I'm like, Where the fuck did you hear that from? Where did you hear that from?

zane allyn (06:45.294)
I'm taking away your phone. Taking your phone away.

greg carl (06:47.617)
Yeah. I was waiting for the I learned it by watching you. I'm like, shit. All right, never mind. But thankfully, like the dealership was like, Don't do it. Yeah.

zane allyn (06:52.536)
Did my own research. Like that's one place you don't have to. They literally write a manual with all of the recommendations. It's when you go to the dealer and they're like, I know it's not in the manual, but they recommend it nowadays that you get this special spark plug clean up. They try to do that to me on the mini all the time because you're going to BMW. Like, hey, for eight hundred dollars. Like they're they're suggesting it now. It's not in the thing, but they don't cover it. I'm like, well, if they suggest it, they should probably cover it then in the warranty, right? Like in the maintenance, right?

greg carl (07:00.493)
Yeah, luckily the the dealership was like, We don't do that.

greg carl (07:09.378)
yeah. A lot of our customers are really coming around on this. Yeah.

zane allyn (07:21.144)
BMW you got like three years of maintenance with the mini?

greg carl (07:23.895)
Yeah. Like the tr I like the trust me bro maintenance policy. I like it. All right.

zane allyn (07:29.752)
But fuck my mini has to go in. My my electric reminding me of all the things that have to happen. My electric mini has to get maintenance, which is fun. You didn't know I had an electric mini? You didn't know I had a mini? How do we not

greg carl (07:38.777)
You know you had an electric mini. I didn't know you had a mini. No. I don't know you had a mini. All I know is you wanted a Rivian and you had a bike. I didn't know about anything else about your cars.

zane allyn (07:49.924)
That's the that's why I have the Lego Mini. yeah, I have had four. So I've had two Clubmins, but that when they brought the Clubman back, not that ugly one that they came out with and then they discontinued, but the original one, which I realize looks like a square back, and I always wanted a square back, so I get the psychology there. But I wanted a mini for a while. So it was a two thousand seven? No, two thousand five.

greg carl (07:53.026)
Respect.

greg carl (08:04.878)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (08:17.837)
Came back. So I had one brown, chocolate brown, had it built in Oxford. Shipped over, got the watch from over. Yeah, like I picked everything. I didn't have a car for like four months. I just like sold my car to CarMax. And I think I owed like a thousand dollars on it, paid it off, just like sat there. but yeah, it was chocolate brown, it was a hot chocolate, is what it was called, and then it had brown lounge leather with this like piping, it was fucking nice. it got damaged a little bit, so I ended up changing it in for a white one.

greg carl (08:21.773)
No shit.

zane allyn (08:45.497)
Which I was like, I'm gonna save gas. I drive too much. I'm gonna get the non-turbo version and the stick shift. Drove that for about a year and a half and I like, fuck this car. And I bought my four-door. I have a four-door one that I bought in 2016. So it's not like the big club countryman, but it's a four-door Cooper. So it's basically like a little longer, and the doors are shorter. And you gotta get cramped in there and they scoop the seats out, but I can get all four of us in there. Kind of jammed up. And then yeah, a year ago I bought an electric seat.

greg carl (08:59.469)
Really?

zane allyn (09:14.861)
Old school electric used. My daughter drives out. So my daughter drives that, my son drives my gas mini. My wife gets to drive the SUV and I'm fucking SOL most of the time. Except today I gotta get to the office. So Yeah, you know that? Big mini guy. I get it. People go, You're a big guy, fucking mini. I'm like, go fuck yourself, don't worry about it. but I liked it. I liked my mini. That's been the most reliable car I've ever driven.

greg carl (09:16.759)
No shit.

greg carl (09:31.309)
I had no idea.

greg carl (09:40.057)
And I can hit it.

zane allyn (09:41.097)
Subaru was a pain in the ass. My Jetta sucked. God, I wanted an Audi so bad, but I remember my Jetta and I'm like, the day I have to take this in and spend two grand because of some whatever, I'm gonna kick this car. So I never bought one.

greg carl (09:53.55)
There's a there there's a there's an ongoing joke that so all my neighbors all my neighbors like four of my neighbors have Jettas. Right? It's like fucking what is this? And I found out they're all related. Had no idea. They don't they don't have a Tesla, they have a Jetta. And they're all African American. So I was like, hey man, white guy question. White guy question. What the fuck, man? Like, first of all, I have a Lincoln and a Challenger. I have the blackest cars in this neighborhood.

zane allyn (10:06.583)
Mm, mm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was like Toyota, Jeddah, Tesla. Yeah. Yeah.

greg carl (10:22.315)
So what the fuck is the Jetta thing? Because I haven't seen this. I got a fucking gator and a challenger. I am both dirty south and big papa at the same time. What the fuck is going on with the Jettas? No one can explain it to me. Got the murked out gator. Are you kidding me? He's like, I don't know. I was it's just a coincidence. Okay, all right. Should I buy Volkswagen stock? No? All right, just asking. All right. Or Audi stock. Is that what it is now?

zane allyn (10:25.635)
Well why am I asking you to watch out my Cadillacs? How much oil it spills? Yeah.

zane allyn (10:35.853)
I'm about ready to put spin rims on this shit. Yeah. On thirty twos. Yeah.

zane allyn (10:48.631)
I

I mean they were big, right? But they I mean they were the largest car they maybe still are the largest car manufacturer, but that's a huge

greg carl (10:56.171)
Second card. Yeah, they were they were until this year. what is that Chinese company that passed But yes, they were. Yes. no, that's

zane allyn (11:01.465)
Was it BYD? It's not BYD. Dude, BYD that's the electric car maker, but dude, I saw one of those in Croatia. They're cool. I was like, my god, it's a BYD. Like I saw one for real. Yeah, 'cause they it's Croatia. You can have over there.

greg carl (11:11.202)
Really?

greg carl (11:14.701)
If they ever get into this country, like Tesla's just gone immediately. Like immediately. Immediately gone.

zane allyn (11:19.599)
Well that's why. That's why I'm mad because it's like it's not you're the best car manufacturer in America. You won't let the other ones in, you asshole. Even though you were like, Yeah. And you get subsidized. Yeah, socialism sucks. I get it. But I had a my my wife had a Jetta before we we dated. So like in her younger years. She liked she actually had two. She had when we met too, Jetta. So old school like like early auds.

greg carl (11:24.865)
No. There you go. And you get subsidized.

greg carl (11:33.401)
Mary.

greg carl (11:47.843)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (11:48.084)
she had one that got stolen. She actually kinda went back and said I don't feel safe and had them like take it back. So she kinda had like pay a lot more. But it got stolen in Cat City. They found it. It was like kinda stripped. I had a Passat with my ex.

I had a GLI. I had the first GLI when it came back. So the the two-liter motor. So it like Audi handed it down. Six speed. Was great, except they put f there was water in the fuel at the dealership and they fucking blew my fuel rail out. And yeah, I was driving to Veg I I picked it up from Ontario, Ca California, and I drove to Vegas. And it was a little weird. And I thought, this is a turbo. It's my first real turbo. Maybe I'm not driving it right. And then like a month in, like, it just started riding rough.

greg carl (12:07.863)
shit.

Mm-hmm.

greg carl (12:19.67)
No way.

zane allyn (12:32.729)
So I took it in, like, hey, what the fuck is this? Like, I hadn't paid a payment yet. So I think it was within the first month. And I took it to the dealer I didn't buy it from. And they were cool. And then I was like negotiating with the other one. Like, why would I pay for this fucking car when you broke it? So I had to argue and I had to get cut payments covered. It sucked. But they had to replace the entire fuel rail. And because it was so new, they're Yeah, it's gonna take us forever, because we don't even have these parts. Like, I don't think they're in America yet. They're all back in Germany. So like it took forever. But anyway.

That's the dealership's fault. And but it was okay, but then the trunk broke. Like it literally just broke and I had to get it fixed. And they tried to blame me. Like you jammed it. I'm like, that's because it wouldn't shut. Like fuck you. Like it broke, like the lock, the electric the electr electronics were out. I had to get it flashed all the time. And then I think that was my last. Yeah, then I got rid of it, got the mini. But my wife had a TDI and she loved it.

And then you know what happened with that shit. They just called us like one day, like, show and we're gonna give you a check. Go away.

greg carl (13:34.325)
Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Not it's not that's not us it's not you, it's us.

zane allyn (13:41.496)
It wasn't broken. It was just like, hey, it's not clean. It turns out diesel's not clean. Which by the way, that's a fascinating. Have you ever read or listened to that doc? there was like a whole documentary on it or whatever. They I didn't realize they did it twice. They were hit, they fixed until then. I've I've known for a while. They did it and then they fixed it. And then they did that thing where, like, if you turned the wheel, it kicked into the old program. But if you just ran it and didn't touch the wheel on the dyno, it

greg carl (13:45.527)
Yeah, sorry.

greg carl (13:54.041)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (14:01.561)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (14:09.003)
Really? I didn't know that.

zane allyn (14:10.039)
Yeah. So basically they're like, hey, solve this and some engineers solved it. It's like AI. It's a perfect AI story. Like, I solved it. Until you actually drive it, it's clean as hell. So it like ran under the 'cause it would it would have made the performance worse, right? And it would have made it a whole different car. And then once you touch the wheel, it turned back into the old program. So it was just all software. Yeah. And and it got caught. They had to pay a lot of money to That's corporate greed. But anyway, whatever.

greg carl (14:30.348)
That's hilarious.

zane allyn (14:39.949)
All because California is a bunch of pansies with their stupid EPA laws. All right. That was a long diet tribe. Yeah, you didn't know that, huh? I've owned four minis. I have I I have two minis. I would probably would have bought the new EV if it wasn't I think it's it might be BYD.

greg carl (14:47.737)
I'll I'll move to California as I'm gonna have a Ford F three fifty. I didn't know that. No.

greg carl (14:57.177)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (15:05.165)
Like it exists. You just can't have it.

zane allyn (15:13.081)
So because BMW went into a partnership with no, it's Great Wall Mortar. So GWM.

They basically made the the chassis or whatever the the platform and then BMW worked with them to build so it's like the new mini body on top of it. And my mini is basically the the i three, the bmw i three, but it's not the whole carbon fiber body, it's it's a mini body. So I'm a cousin, it's my cousin. You see tons of them around here, by the way. I almost bought one of them. but yeah, because they

greg carl (15:36.823)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (15:46.741)
had that. That was before Trump got in. And I was like, shit, it's gonna be hard to get unless they build it in Europe or they build it over here and then he got elected. I like, Well I'll never fucking get one of these cars

greg carl (15:49.411)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (16:00.64)
Anyway, I'm a mini fan. All right, I'll shut up. So it was our it was our entry, Evie. Hundred miles of range. It's truly everybody says it's go kart like handling. It's literally a go kart. I have a go kart in my garage. I can do ninety. It's got sides. Better seat belts and airbags. So it's a little better.

greg carl (16:21.737)
Mm.

zane allyn (16:25.335)
And you turn it. It's like it's so fun. My wife, here's testament to it. My wife, SUV. She liked the Passat, but she goes, I want to go back up higher because she had like MDX before. And and she hated my mini. She would never really get in it. It was my car. She goes, You can drive it. I don't care. She'd get in with me sometimes, but she never wanted to drive it.

And then I gave her the electric mini and she's like, my daughter drives the shit out of it now. She's I miss it. I miss driving the mini. So even my wife, S U V, wants to be up high, loves that car. Because I think it's it's the electricness. So anyway. I don't know. I don't know why I'm selling you one. By the you can't make get them anymore because I had to buy it used.

greg carl (16:58.7)
Awesome.

greg carl (17:05.491)
I don't fit in a mini. So there's that. So I

zane allyn (17:10.169)
So Joe Hughes will tell you the story. I had me, Joe Hughes, you've met Joe Hughes, Mike Nelson, and I forget the other guy who wasn't a small dude in that car. And I drove them, albeit I was doing them Mario the whole time we're gonna say I had fucking Donkey Kong next to me. I mean, me and Joe are touching, don't get me wrong. And I'm like, and luckily it's not stick shift anymore, so I would have like fucking in his crotch probably, but

greg carl (17:15.629)
Yeah, I know Joe.

greg carl (17:22.179)
Fucking clown car, dude.

zane allyn (17:38.478)
Yeah, we all get in. It was it was at the Lincoln Center. So we got into like one parking lot. I said, he goes, we're gonna go to our hotels. They were here for that sequel thing. I said, I'll come by. And they were walking. And I said, But I'm gonna drive my car because I don't wanna walk back. You come with me or you can walk, I'll meet you there. And they're Fuck it. And they all get in. I'm like, it's a mini. We all get in. You're pretty slightly, mr.

greg carl (17:52.547)
But

zane allyn (18:03.023)
So you're right. You wouldn't want to air daily driver that. Anyway.

greg carl (18:05.625)
No, that is that is not for not for me.

zane allyn (18:09.775)
Well that's a good little clip we have right there. But speaking of sons, I ran that Odyssey story by mine. And his a what's that?

greg carl (18:18.759)
yeah? So

So so just to recap, help me out. Let me make sure I'm keeping up here.

zane allyn (18:24.591)
greg carl (18:28.035)
So your thoughts on the Odyssey is a parallel for what AI is now or the aftermath?

zane allyn (18:35.16)
Yeah, we're we're

Yeah, we we burned down the gates of Tro or the walls of Troy, right? We did it by putting the Trojan horse in there, went against Zeus's laws and all those things, offended all the gods. Yeah, now now we're here, right? We got it done. Right? We're sick, the ten years that it took. I think it was ten years around that beach. And maybe I'm conflating Christopher Nolan to Odyssey, the real Odyssey, but

greg carl (18:41.121)
As you do, right.

Mm-hmm.

greg carl (18:49.101)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (18:55.607)
You know, it's f it's fine. That's okay. Elon's gonna make one that's completely accurate. Don't worry about that.

zane allyn (18:59.503)
And so now Odysseus has to take the journey home, right? Like, what's the journey home? Is it are we gonna accept our fate? AI is what it is. But I told this to my son, and he's like, no. AI is the Trojan horse. And we used it in a way to get into those gates. And now we've burned down the city just so we could deploy AI. Now I asked him, I was like, okay, where's AI now? Like, I I don't actually know what happened to the Trojan horse. Is it burned too?

greg carl (19:02.957)
Right.

greg carl (19:18.69)
Mm.

zane allyn (19:26.031)
And Odysseus isn't making nice. I thought, you know, he had to kind of reconcile with what he did and kind of get home to his wife. But he said, no, he's accepting his fate. He has to take his whole crew. He goes, and and and Odysseus is the corporations. We're the crew. And we all have to die. And Odysseus is going to get back and he just has to accept his fate because he kills all the suitors at the end. Like he's like, this is just how it is. And the gods are just telling me how it has to has to how it has to turn out. And I'm like,

It's a little more bleak in this analogy. I mean, he was just going on the Odyssey story, but he started filling it in there. So he he had some strong opinions. The Trojan horse is AI, were the crew and Odysseus's corporations and how they utilize AI. So I don't know.

greg carl (20:13.463)
And the corporations should be atoning, but they're not. We're just really screwed and stuck inside this Trojan horse.

zane allyn (20:19.021)
And then the gods are, you I don't know where the gods fill it in is I I I guess I didn't push that because I was really trying to say, well, where's AI gonna end up? I was thinking we could reconcile and get to a place. My analogy is if we do it right, it's okay. Like, okay, we we're here now because we just shoved it through the gates and got in and then, you know, been there ten years, so everybody murders everybody. you know, you know, as one does in war. Especially in the olden days, right?

greg carl (20:38.709)
Right. Yeah. As you do, right. That that is that is one of the things that's on the side effects. Yeah. Like you know, you know, Achilles just coming out of the gate and just cutting Apollo's head off, probably not the good way to start, let's be honest. Like probably opened up the can of worm terminals to kinda pile on.

zane allyn (20:54.799)
So I showed him I told him your analogy too about Achilles and we were gonna do Groundhog's Day. He wasn't super impressed. I'm like, it it would be a hit, but

greg carl (21:00.483)
We're just old man. No I told my trainer about it. He's like, What's Groundhog Day? I'm like, you know what? Get away from me. Yeah, the the guy from Ghostbusters. I'm like, everyone has failed you, and I'm sorry. The guy from Ghostbusters. Get out of here. The greatest comedic minds of our generation.

zane allyn (21:05.657)
That's what I was thinking. I was like, remember we watched that movie? Yeah. Yeah, I remember. Yeah.

zane allyn (21:14.831)
What was the submarine one he did with see he did all those movies with I forget that director. That director's pretty great. He's very he did the hotel. He did the the hotel one and anyway. god, what is the hotel? The Grand Budapest

greg carl (21:25.975)
Zemecus?

greg carl (21:36.486)
Grand Product was tell. yeah, the not my gosh.

zane allyn (21:39.183)
Anyway, there's that submarine one. Maybe he knows him from that movie. I don't know. Where he's the c Jacques Yeah, Artsy P Marine. Yeah, living in Tennessee Chattanooga, Tennessee now or wherever he lives.

greg carl (21:44.002)
Yeah, like artsy artsy Bill Murray. Yeah. It's yeah. Jacques Vill not Villaneux. Jacques Villeneuve? No.

God, all those move now now now we're down a deeper rat hole. but okay. Odyssey.

zane allyn (21:58.298)
He didn't. He didn't.

greg carl (22:01.859)
Groundhog Day.

zane allyn (22:02.031)
Anyway, so that's that's the new thought. Huh? Huh?

greg carl (22:05.015)
So is Achilles hugging face just left to die in Troy with an arrow in its leg? Hopefully being premect protected by a Chinese model? No.

zane allyn (22:11.023)
And he's always gonna get an arrow like no matter how we shake this out.

zane allyn (22:16.991)
Was Achilles protected by any gods that I don't know that I'm forgetting?

greg carl (22:19.321)
Mm.

he was blessed by the gods. I don't know that he was protected by the gods, 'cause I don't think he had a lot of respect for him. Like any good demigod, there's debate if Achilles was a demigod or not. I believe he's a demigod. not really respected per se.

zane allyn (22:26.681)
So is the is is are the gods?

zane allyn (22:34.531)
Yeah. Certainly.

zane allyn (22:42.189)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Looking that up. So I don't know, you know, are we now saying Kimmy three and are are the K is like it's like K pop or something? Are those the gods? Are Frontier models the gods? Corporate models are the Trojan horse my gosh. It's just

greg carl (22:48.707)
Kimmy K three, I was corrected. Kimmy K three, we have to say K three correctly. Yes. That might be racist, not sure.

greg carl (23:07.567)
it's gotta be your bowl. yeah, got it. Yeah. Get a good stake sticking my head up a butcher's ass. yeah. It does.

zane allyn (23:11.095)
Mm.

zane allyn (23:15.189)
Makes more sense if you're gonna make money off it, it's probably because it's a human thing and not what the gods want. So the gods can be pretty vengeful too. Anyway, hey, still here, gosh.

greg carl (23:20.897)
It does. Yeah. Huh.

Still here. Never left. Can't stop, won't stop. Am I right? well we didn't finish our conversation, man. There was there was so much going on since the last last time we talked. like we're talking about models and

zane allyn (23:37.933)
Yeah. And we could put time in between these, but then then seventeen things more happen and I don't know. Yep. Then life happens.

greg carl (23:43.702)
Life happens, man. I'm still waiting for the end of the World Cup. Spoiler alert. When did this happen? Who knows? It's after the World Cup. will Messi win again? I I know. It's he's not. spoilers if you haven't seen the World Cup. That's that a thing anymore. Again, somebody's watching this three years ago, like, wait, Messi played again in the next World Cup? I don't know. I don't understand how the internet works.

zane allyn (23:49.711)
The end of the wake up.

zane allyn (23:58.076)
yeah. Was they beautiful and tragic and

What if he does? What if he does? He just McGregor's this thing.

greg carl (24:09.709)
He can. I mean he can. He just kind of putts around the field and do passes and play keep away like Spain likes to do. I'm not gonna get into a whole football thing. but speaking of people that are kinda just kicking the can, if you will, people are just kicking the can around. There's some rumors going around from the the deep mind side of the house believing that Google is kind of taking a step back and is losing the quote unquote AI arms race, for lack of a better term. where you've seen like the

zane allyn (24:20.707)
I watch these many games. I watch maybe these many games. Yeah.

greg carl (24:38.965)
Out the kind of release of Fable and the release of new benchmarks for 5.6 soul and you basically playing the benchmark game is like I'm one percent better than you. This reminds me of the like CPU benchmark wars from like 10-15 years ago when everyone was like, dude, my spec rating is this higher and then it was like three percent higher, and like Cisco beat Dell, and then just Dell said, You what? I'm at it with this and just crushed everybody.

Remind me kind of the same thing. Like they're like, we're three three and a half percent better. Yeah, but if you look at it from this way, it's actually all these sort of subjective scales are around here. But all that being said, Gemini 3.5, strongest model, solid, very relatively versatile. But when you get into purpose-built use cases, not very strong overall, especially for coding. You look at like Kimmy K three, that's beating out not quite beating out the 5056 from Opus and

zane allyn (25:33.05)
but you could argue for certain tasks. Yeah. You could argue for certain tasks. Yeah. You could do that and it's lot cheaper and y it's gonna be just as good. Yeah. Yeah.

greg carl (25:33.545)
GPT, but it costs one percent less like costs one percent. Mm-hmm.

greg carl (25:45.402)
And there's some folks that are pushing back saying how you're not using the model properly, if you're not optimizing your skills, you're not optimizing your offline, you know, are you really optimizing how the model's being utilized? I think that's neither here nor there. but what can be said or from the Gemini perspective is things have kind of slowed down. There's been some attrition, supposedly, ever since there was I believe in April of 26, a new deal was announced with the federal government that was kind of undisclosed a little bit, something on the DOW side, Department of War side.

what actually led some Googlers to depart, which again can't say here nor there. There's just stuff that's being reported. the talent's getting poached, right? It's a it's a very highly competitive market out there, poaching talent from each other. In some cases, you can steal corporate secrets if you go to OpenAI from Apple, apparently. So, you know, good times are had all around. So what do you what are your thoughts, man? I know we are a we work in a

zane allyn (26:20.623)
Pressure from from the Yeah.

zane allyn (26:38.499)
Not to mention not to mention there's been a little a little pressure from first time in a while Google's earnings have kind of affected or their their their cash flow is what I'm trying to say. Their free cash flow has gone through because of their AI investments. So maybe they're looking real deep at like what's that what's that what's that return that I'm getting on these? I mean Google's been around a long time. It's a kind of a mature company, might think of things different.

greg carl (26:53.795)
Cash flow. Mm-hmm.

greg carl (27:09.081)
A very large macro question. That's the biggest challenge with enterprise AI right now, right? Is where is the return on investment across the board? Well, that's a whole different rat hole. But what are your thoughts, man? We

zane allyn (27:09.228)
You can

zane allyn (27:16.781)
And if you're new in the game, well I'm saying if you're new in the game, like that doesn't matter. Your growth, right? I need to take market share. I need to be the best model. But if you're long time in the game, especially that's not the only game you play, you just have to kind of keep relevant and keep up, maybe. And if earnings and cash flow rather really matter from a macro perspective. I mean, you can

greg carl (27:35.221)
Strike where it makes sense versus trying to compete in the arms race, right? Like you I contribute right, right.

zane allyn (27:38.724)
Yeah. Like what's the what's the upside for that? Right. Yeah. Yeah. If Gemini's good enough to deal with a toy, and I'll say, in my opinion, Gemini isn't my favorite AI tool, but it is something that we have at work because it's part of our G Suite and works really good with tools like that. If you want to do quick analyses, you want to look up things. heck, I got a PDF the other day.

greg carl (27:54.785)
We do. Yep.

zane allyn (28:03.229)
about something new with an alliance partner we're with and I was able to ask it direct questions on my phone like hey I'm looking for this part because it was a big document. Gave me a nice summary. Said, hey do you want me to give you some PowerShell commands for that? Like I go that's okay it's pretty strong, right? I can go analyze some data set that I have right in front of me. So if that's good enough and it works with the tools they have, I don't mean I don't know why do they have to lead the way? Right.

greg carl (28:09.452)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (28:16.697)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (28:22.443)
It's good enough, man. Yeah. R C cola's just it's a good old cola, right? It ain't Pepsi, it ain't cooked. By golly, it is there. And it

zane allyn (28:30.275)
Well and if it works and if it works with the tool set you really want people to be using because at the end of the day, what is Google? But the biggest search engine ever. They just need to know about you and keep you in their ecosystem. maybe that's okay and it's a smart decision. I mean, Apple or they could be tool. Okay.

greg carl (28:45.643)
Or or maybe they can retool, right? Like shifting, I mean NVIDIA's leading the big push to mu push more open and frontier driving models. Gemini has re or well, the Deep Mind has released more smaller models as well here recently. So maybe it is I'm necessarily like a reallocation, but maybe it's a kind of a strategic shift versus trying to play keeping up with the Joneses because it's a zero sum game in some cases, right? Alphabet is not pending an IPO. What is the you know, what is the

zane allyn (29:07.119)
Smaller model. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe edge stuff. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. People invest in them because of their steadiness and not their giant growth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're part of large portfolios for that reason. And if you start dipping into it and hey, you're in the red now. That's a good point. And maybe maybe they're gonna pivot. Maybe it's smaller models, maybe stuff at the edge, maybe stuff to help them on the search engines. I don't know.

greg carl (29:15.609)
What is the end game for them?

greg carl (29:21.945)
Right. Yeah.

zane allyn (29:35.929)
Maybe it's the things like I talk about that are at the tool set that I mean they have the data centers.

greg carl (29:39.513)
I think there's a lot of folks that that have kind of agreed that front they do have the data centers and glord knows we don't have enough of Right, kids? Let's build some more in your backyards if you don't mind.

zane allyn (29:50.98)
I mean and and look at I don't know if it draws parallels to Apple, but Apple kind of being criticized for being behind in the AI race and now they're just gonna utilize others, right? But

greg carl (30:01.731)
Well, this question says they're licensing Gemini. But does this go back to the smaller, smaller obviously it's not the full three dot five running it's gonna be running on an iOS device? Smaller frontier models may be the way to go, more general purpose, as opposed to do I need to be executing Python on my iPhone? Probably not. or do I need to say, Hey, can I look through this document or my photos or something that gives me some value and relevance?

zane allyn (30:06.703)
So that's what actually was.

zane allyn (30:21.593)
Right. Right. You do exactly what I just said I did. Like, hey, I just need to re Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Help me in my day to day life. See information quickly, make decisions. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly the use case I did the other day. Hey, break this out in this document for me. Give me the facts. Give me the exact summary. Cool, now I can go talk about it. Yeah.

greg carl (30:36.249)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (30:41.005)
And this is the challenge. This is the overall challenge is there there's the capitalist side of this, which is if you're not first, you're last, right? And and because this is more of a human experience as AI is iterating, like we talked about already, is being first best. I maybe, I mean, you can say you were there first, you can front you can say you hey, I was on the cutting edge of some of these things, but maybe that's why we see the pivot to smaller frontier models being kind of the future.

Like I don't need you the the infrastructure I need. We talked about like the optimization from Google from a memory perspective. There's all the all the time is is constantly evolving, right? It's a constantly evolving market, which is why we keep talking about this, right? It's never stopped. We've never hit a flat line or a bedrock that's like, hey shit, I'll take Amazon bedrock. that says

zane allyn (31:24.963)
Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (31:30.073)
That's why the the AI bubble, my opinion, is gonna be the losers are gonna be what's that impact gonna be? Not the losers, but like I I hate to use that term, but the things that aren't going to exist long term and the way that they're being utilized and how that model is gonna look or how that that pay pay model is gonna look, is you know, are you gonna be affected by that or not? But AI is gonna stay around, right? We're gonna have this tech just like what iteration of it for sure.

greg carl (31:39.127)
No, they're losers. Call losers. Shame

greg carl (31:48.249)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (31:56.6)
Yeah. I don't know if it's gonna be scraps of a previous civilization, like kind of a thing. Like, hey, this is what actually remained after after the years after the the fallout of things going forward. But I mean, look, and can we all agree at least it ain't copilot? At least it ain't copilot. Right? We're not nobody's saying have you heard anyone say copilot is really solving a lot for me? This is nothing against Microsoft. It's like man, we understand what we're doing here. Copilot is not it.

zane allyn (32:18.158)
I co piloted.

zane allyn (32:23.715)
Weren't they li what's their big A open AI, right? They just did a big investment over there, so they're obviously kinda

greg carl (32:30.125)
And they've hedged some with anthropic as well. So they they are kind of all over the place. They can afford to do that. but yeah.

zane allyn (32:32.591)
Philanthropic.

zane allyn (32:38.253)
Maybe Alphabet's gonna put all their AI into Waymo. It's all about autonomous cars, buddy. Rivian Rivian stated that, right? They're gonna put the LiDARs on the car, not to benefit you, but to benefit them so they can build a bigger understanding. Goes back to my Pokemon thing, right? They're gonna go video the world so they know how to map it and make their autonomous cars better.

greg carl (32:45.065)
Is it Is it Okay. Well

greg carl (33:01.037)
Very Bezocian of you. Like we need the water for the AI as opposed to you actually actually existing. Yeah, the Waymo's are gonna be driving around. The Waymos are gonna be you know, riding us and eventually. Like yeah, if you if you would get stuck in a Toyota Corolla driving in circles, let's do it, man. Like Waymo's the future.

zane allyn (33:04.335)
Because the AI is gonna help the humans.

zane allyn (33:18.09)
Well it'll just call us.

that's a great tool. Waymo calls you to say, Hey, I happen to be going this way. Can I take you anywhere? I like that. Preemptive. Scoop you up, man. You wanna ride? You wanna ride along, man? What you doing today?

greg carl (33:28.761)
Yeah, I'm gonna scoop you up. by the way, here's your bill.

Don't worry, I'll I'll bill your agent, which is directly tied to your Apple Pay, don't worry. by the way, your l your lawyer's calling.

zane allyn (33:38.944)
I I am I am the utopian optimistic guy and and and and what's his name? Savage Rivian RJ sold me on this that one day and I know if I buy Rivian this year, it won't do this. I get that. And it it will never do this. I'll have to buy the level four driving. But if one day if they can drop me off the airport and then go home and then get me a week later and nobody has to drive it, I'm in for that world. That's the world I want.

greg carl (33:47.299)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

greg carl (33:55.289)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (34:06.839)
Now I told this to my son too and he's like, Well, it's like less efficient than trains. I'm like, You think about it, it's more efficient. They just all lock up, you give a lane. I know. I know there's a lot of giving a lane and dedicating a lane, but I don't know. I think there's something to

greg carl (34:18.583)
That is serialized versus so that I think that is serialized versus digitized, right? That's the whole analog versus stereo kind of thing. Like trains go in what you can't alter the course, right? We're not just saying, it breaks off here and here and here and here. Like, come on now. I don't agree with that. But they do. Mass transit needs we need more I'd be clear. We need more, better, more modernized mass transit in the United States in general. You talk to me about monorails, I'm in. but they're just not happening where they should be.

zane allyn (34:25.059)
Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (34:31.971)
Yeah. And maybe they still exist, like for big movement, right? I'm not gonna do this. Yeah, yeah. I like

zane allyn (34:43.033)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have that investment. We don't have the money. We're broke.

greg carl (34:52.407)
Yeah, because we're subsidizing electric cars for unimrods.

zane allyn (34:54.415)
Need the water.

greg carl (35:01.229)
There we go. There we go. Well, look, man, you bring up a good point, right? Where you're talking about level four Rivian driving, and you know, you can have Rosie the robot from the Jetsons driving around. It's gonna be great. so Sam Altman, your your friend, your boy, Sam Altman, has says, We are here. The singularity is now. Apparently, he said this on a podcast. We are we are in the moment that the moment has happened. Now, full disclosure.

zane allyn (35:11.863)
Yeah.

zane allyn (35:15.703)
I'm a boy, college boy.

zane allyn (35:21.527)
Yeah.

greg carl (35:29.017)
Could also be saying, hey man, not my fault we beat up hugging face. Just it it's self-aware. You know, the dog got out. The dog got out, man. The fence was locked. I don't know what to tell you. The dog got out. It's like you can't play dog got out with AI. You gotta have some sort of moral adaptitude to be able to say, Hey, that's on us. My bad. you know, maybe we should take a step back, slow things down. No, that's again. See previous statement on we live in a capitalist society and money is the key driver on all this.

zane allyn (35:35.039)
kind of a way to say sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (35:58.01)
So and and his singularity, I guess is what the singularity is, the AI has now transcended human intelligence, right? Or what we can do. It's basically if the if the AI thinks your company should be hacked, then your company needs to be hacked.

greg carl (35:58.652)
greg carl (36:03.789)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (36:08.91)
So

greg carl (36:13.081)
It it's basically where artificial intelligence has surpassed human intelligence, right? The hype it's supposed to be a hypothetical future point. This goes all the way back to my gosh, sixty years ago. singularity, which I'm completely blanking on the book now, and I'm gonna get completely scolded by the book. It's actually right over there, that talks about the singularity and the concept. And and I exactly know who it is, it's somebody we work with. but

zane allyn (36:17.037)
Yeah, yeah.

zane allyn (36:26.287)
Yeah, I think it's a while.

greg carl (36:42.551)
That being said, i is the moment where are are we in the moment where it has kind of surpassed?

zane allyn (36:46.105)
Well Newman, the mathematician, but then there's books after that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

greg carl (36:50.317)
Yes. Yes. Not it's it's not my gosh. No. No. I don't this if we if we do this every time I have an old man moment and can't remember, that this is gonna be a seven hour podcast. We just can't do this. Gorbachev, no? All right. Alex Schrebeck, no? All right. Nipsey Russell. Just start saying names. That's just

zane allyn (36:54.446)
As well.

zane allyn (37:00.875)
I'm just gonna throw names out. And when you pick one I'm gonna throw out names and you're gonna pick the one that's not even on the list and it's gonna be Gorbachov. Yeah. that's what that thing holds on is

zane allyn (37:17.039)
That's why they killed him. my gosh. Huh?

greg carl (37:19.863)
Which one? Wait, which one? Nipsey? They got Nipsey?

zane allyn (37:25.391)
There's our there's there's our yeah. There's our there's our conspiracy theory. Anyway, sorry. I I'm not sorry I derailed you. That's what we do here. So okay. I thought it was I even looked it up. That's the singularities in the element. I think that's the book you're talking about. That's like the two thousand early achts and all that. Yeah, yeah. All right. We can't let a podcast go without actual facts.

greg carl (37:35.286)
It was Kurzweil. It is it is Kurzweil. Yeah, it was. It was. It was Kurzweil. It's right over there. That's so

greg carl (37:48.438)
but is it now? Have we surpassed human intelligence? And and if it has, okay, let's assume that Mr. Sam is right. Nice, you know, kind, gentle soul that he is. let's assume he's right. Have are we past the point of no return? Can we put the genie back in the bottle, as we like to say on this podcast? What do you think, man? If we are really at a point where AI has surpassed us, you know, Skynet is.

zane allyn (37:58.224)
Okay.

greg carl (38:15.799)
Not quite online, but it's kind of in startup mode. It's getting like, you know, YC funding. are we what do we do?

zane allyn (38:23.305)
so we're talking about like so singularity means Skynet. It's just the Yeah, but I mean we're like that's just always the logical conclusion is that

greg carl (38:28.653)
Yeah, the AI has surpassed human intelligence and gets more unpredictable. Yes. Yes. You you we will become meat popsicles and you know, Waymo's will tell us where we're going as opposed to us requesting cars.

zane allyn (38:41.784)
Mien

I still think I don't know, maybe I just don't think there's a singularity yet, but technology still needs us, sorry to say, in some regards. So I guess we would have to like come along nicely and be nice little surfs or indentured, whatever we'd have to be. I don't see that happening. I guess that is what the whole premise of of the Terminator was, but I I guess I don't think we're there.

greg carl (38:57.219)
Right.

zane allyn (39:08.695)
I just don't think I don't think if like humans just walked away from the tech that the singularity could live on its own. I guess is what I'm saying. And I think that's what should have to be in singularity. Now I strongly believe or think or my opinion, I think we'll just say opinion, that's the same thing. we're kind of going through what are the tasks that it does better than humans and what are the things that humans do better than technology. And if we can live in that symbiotic past.

greg carl (39:09.721)
I don't think so either.

greg carl (39:33.335)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (39:36.112)
And I still think if we control the text, so I think we could. It's really just about the human aspect. We we could get it wrong. Yeah, it has surpassed us in the fact that it can be more intelligent, in the fact that it can look at a large subset of data and give us outcomes and perspectives that it would take us forever. Because it's just how our minds work that weren't evolved to do that. We evolved to make the thing to do it for us. That makes sense. Together were the singularity. Two makes one. I don't know. that's a there's a there's a thing.

greg carl (39:49.625)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (39:58.958)
Hundred percent.

greg carl (40:05.443)
Two makes one. Two makes one.

zane allyn (40:06.312)
I think that's yeah, that's just hyperbole it's hyperbole.

greg carl (40:10.009)
Isn't that like a 98 degree song? Okay. All right. Okay. no, I I I I agree. I think I that it it is it is one of the nah, you're welcome. Welcome to my world now. That's for getting me with curse while. this is

zane allyn (40:14.999)
no.

Yeah, what is that? God you just put that in my head.

zane allyn (40:26.393)
Two of hearts is what I'm thinking. Two of hearts. All right. Anyway, that's gonna go right in here. we're gonna get demonetized.

greg carl (40:32.215)
Man. YouTube shorts, baby. Nothing like it.

zane allyn (40:37.123)
Less than sixty seconds, thirty seconds, I'll figure it out. I'll ask AI.

greg carl (40:40.535)
So the the it it's funny, there's there's so there's multiple like science I'm a big science fiction nerd, right? So I I read all kinds of science fiction, always have since was a kid. one of them's like the Warhammer forty K. You ever heard of that? Like the nerds playing with their models and like fake war space fighting. But they refer to in their books as 'cause there was a similar problem with AI in the past and that lore of where AI was actually taking over and

zane allyn (40:54.899)
yeah yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

greg carl (41:05.229)
They now refer to it as abominable intelligence. So if you ever find something that's AI, it's like sacrilege. It must be burned at all costs. It's actually very interesting. But I mean, that is assuming that's what happens post-singularity. It's never, it's never a utopian thing. It's it's never a

zane allyn (41:11.375)
Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (41:19.555)
No, I I can agree with that. If you do get that singularity, that is probably what you get. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

greg carl (41:22.293)
Mm-hmm.

And would you know? Would you know if you're in that realm or not? Because assuming you know it would be about placating the monkeys, make sure you make sure the trains are running on time, right? It's the first thing the eye would do. Make sure the trains make make have no knowledge that we have surpassed that we can kind of employ. Would we even know that we're being placated and led along in to the zero-day moment?

zane allyn (41:28.302)
And then.

zane allyn (41:36.64)
Mm.

zane allyn (41:48.378)
Do you think it would keep us like could we be in there now? Like, would it divide us so that we don't rise up against it? Or does it make it utopian so that we don't have a reason to complain? Or does it this is the premise of a bunch of movies, isn't it? And this is kind of the matrix. It's like, does it try a bunch of things? Yeah, I don't think the human battery thing makes sense because that's a most inefficient way to use us.

greg carl (42:07.853)
Kind of. Yeah.

greg carl (42:14.305)
We don't generate that much energy to be on yeah.

zane allyn (42:15.693)
Yeah, exactly. That's crazy, but you had to have a premise and I love the movies and I was a big phil philosophy guy, so I like the movies. But yeah, how would it act? 'Cause how would you know? Like if everything's perfect, that seems ideal to me. Like, hey, make everybody happy. Nobody does anything to hurt the AI. And you wanna think the AI wants the most logical outcome or the best outcome, but it thinks is the best outcome. Like, you know, hugging face needs to be hacked. It shouldn't have been hackable. Great.

It's kind of its opinion, right? They don't have a punchable face. Yeah. Punching face. I'm sorry. Hugging face is getting a lot of the brunt here, but it's kind of funny. Like that's how AI saw it. Like, hey, you I can get in there, so I will. You're welcome. But or do you keep the monkeys happy? You're right. But in cages.

greg carl (42:44.505)
I mean, you've heard the term punchable face, right? That guy has a very punchable face. I mean, maybe hugging face had a very punchable face, right? But a

greg carl (43:00.045)
Yeah.

greg carl (43:05.985)
And and Utopia never works, right? And it's in this is actually in one of the the I think it was in one of the Matrix movies. Like we tried that. We tried making everyone happy. You guys seek chaos. Yeah, you guys seek chaos naturally. Like that is it's just not it's in your nature. Yeah.

zane allyn (43:08.641)
It doesn't.

zane allyn (43:13.411)
Yeah, that's why I said this is like the premise of the matrix. I really said it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So we gotta give you a little of that. Yeah. So I keep you divided. I can control the algorithms and what you view you view and see and yeah. Okay. So we could really quite literally be in the middle of right now and Sam Altman's right and he's our profit.

greg carl (43:27.457)
It looks like we do that to ourselves.

greg carl (43:32.397)
Maybe he did it. Maybe Sam's to blame. Hmm.

zane allyn (43:35.023)
It's like, no, I weren't here because I can tell you. I'm not even real. Yeah, because I

greg carl (43:37.497)
Yeah, I 'cause I did it. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know 'cause I did it. Whoopsies. maybe that's his welcome to IT moment. I created the singularity and I you know, and I thought taking a building offline was bad.

zane allyn (43:46.36)
And and you're right. My Yeah. And man, my opinion that like there's no way, you know, technology is gonna be better than what humans do. That's a very human centric way to be, and that's very much where the center of the universe give a monkey a brain. I get it. I get it. It's a little hey, we're special in the universe, so everything must adhere to this when really it's just happened on one planet, maybe, and the rest of the universe could care less. So So you're right. But in our world, I like to think no.

greg carl (44:11.843)
Yeah.

greg carl (44:15.991)
In our bubble and the marble that we're in in men in black.

zane allyn (44:17.461)
What if there's some other intelligence out there? I mean, we can get real metaphysical here. Who's to say our intelligence makes any damn difference? It's just our experience.

greg carl (44:26.125)
Yeah. What what if what if we're the apes? Hmm. Or we are. We've never really evolved.

zane allyn (44:29.709)
We are. We are the ape. Wow. Good park.

greg carl (44:33.335)
Yeah, it's so speaking of open AI and poor Hugging Face, man. Somebody Hugging Face, we love you, man. It's just Yeah, I'm sorry. Listen, it w back I grew up in the eighties, right? So when somebody got knocked out by Mike Tyson and never went to school the next Monday, people talked about the dude that got knocked out by Mike Tyson. I'm sorry. All right. I didn't I'm sorry. Maybe one day you'll be Buster Douglas, but today

zane allyn (44:42.905)
Somebody else needs to get hacked so we can stop talking about yeah.

greg carl (45:01.347)
You're the guy that got knocked out by Iron Mike. I'm sorry, hugging the face. Exactly. And you know luckily GLM was out there and it saved the day. Thanks, Chinese frontier models. Appreciate it. for saving the day. From what is the name of Z Poo AI? Z A I? Yeah. Saving the day once again from

zane allyn (45:02.927)
Yeah. But that's how you get comeback stories. It's a good thing. It's very human. Again, like you said, we like chaos.

zane allyn (45:13.716)
yeah. That's the interest of such the best part of that story.

zane allyn (45:21.839)
So you invited your really cool friend over, and then he got out of control. Maybe he was drunk. He punches you in the face. And luckily, your your other friends who, you know, weren't as cool, but you known him a long time, you kept them around, you know, you you do some things with them. Maybe you still play the D once in a while, whatever it is, happen to step in the middle and save you. That's nice.

greg carl (45:24.526)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (45:43.961)
But he didn't j listen, they didn't j they tried to break in his house. They vandalized the home. Like it was a horror movie, dude. Like they're trying to get in by any means necessary to eventually the guy comes in and just, you know, busts through the wall like the Kool-Aid man, and who comes in?

zane allyn (45:58.702)
Yeah okay.

greg carl (46:01.42)
GLM from three blocks over who heard a ruckus. You know, what the hell's going on over here? I gotcha, man. I got ya. Get out of here. I say thee nay and like back to the darkness.

zane allyn (46:04.419)
That's what it was. Came down the street like what's going on? I gotcha. I gotcha. Come on. Put him up for a night, let him sleep in the guest bedroom. And he's out there out there with a block party helping him rebuild the boat building. Okay, that's nice.

greg carl (46:18.519)
Yeah. I actually saw a a great one the other day. It was Lord of the Rings. Again, we're getting really nerdy on this one, man. We're obscure references. Like the Lord of the Rings when like the ballrog is coming to Gandalf like blocks it. It's like, the little Chinese model is blocking off the ballrog that is open AI. It's like, you guys are just great. I can never quit the internet. but speak

zane allyn (46:36.835)
Best thing the internet ever did. Now that went bad. Talking about singularity. Remember when the 4chan singularity happened? Anyhow, we can keep it going.

greg carl (46:46.093)
Oofah. Oofah. That's all I got to say is oofa. so speaking of Chinese German lamps, Kimmy K three. very, very hot topic right now for obvious reasons. I'm one from a cost to performance ratio. It's just n it's it's it's a joke. It's not even close, especially for coding tasks and it's being very, very just forward thinking.

zane allyn (47:07.491)
Yeah. It's like fractions, right? Fractions of a cent or maybe dollar that just the same task what it would take.

greg carl (47:14.073)
Is that like the pro is that the plot of Superman three? Fracknons of a penny? Is that what we're doing right now? Richard Pryor?

zane allyn (47:18.729)
And and in the office space.

greg carl (47:21.943)
Yeah, fractions of a penny, bro. Hmm. Interesting. give me K three.

zane allyn (47:25.869)
Rounding here. But stealing. No, no, no, no. These are rounding off, but they're going into your account. So stealing. Okay.

greg carl (47:34.295)
What just out there, man. You're just out there. but again, we've talked about IPOs and valuations of companies on America models, but look at something like Kimmy that is in its boom right now, did not stop the attack of hugging face. but

zane allyn (47:51.735)
No. Yeah, we look we we we look into that 'cause we figured, right, that would have been my guess. But it wasn't.

greg carl (47:58.702)
But being at a hundred and fifty X IPO valuation to a hundred and fifty X to revenue. Now

I will again first of all, we are not financial advisors, we are not economists, we are not trained in this art. So do not take any this again, we're just a couple of dummies on a podcast. 150x valuation ratio to revenue is kind of crazy, right? 150x with the current state of how AI is is pretty insane. that being said, is this, Mr. Zane.

zane allyn (48:13.392)
yeah. yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (48:38.19)
Yeah.

greg carl (48:38.305)
an indicator of the I won't say the I won't say the word. I refuse. I'll we'll we'll call it the Michael Boublet. We won't say the other word. We'll say the bubblet. Because if you say it too many times you manifest it, right? We're one of the we're gonna take that. Is it the is this the booblet? Is this an indicator of the booblet?

zane allyn (48:52.151)
That's right. A candy man. Hmm.

greg carl (48:59.491)
'Cause it's not just the US markets.

zane allyn (48:59.575)
Is this the anything we're talking

But yeah, I don't I I guess I don't it's coming out of China too, right? So like things are a little different over there about how things are evaluated. But I get your point if we look at it from a traditional sense. But is it the worst company that's IPO'd recently? Earnings to to value or

greg carl (49:09.471)
Yeah, yeah.

greg carl (49:22.425)
Not really. I Deep Seek's at like one forty eight X, so it's

zane allyn (49:25.335)
Yeah, what's SpaceX? I mean not that that's a good example, but you know, what what are they? I

And that's all because of AI too, actually. I just I just put that into my head. But is it a bubble? It it yes, I think it's probably a bubble in a sense that they're not all gonna make it. And the problem is that circular kind of economy, well, like economies are circular, but that circular map that we talked about earlier. if one of these things doesn't meet what it expects, how does that drag the others down based upon how they all have a relationship?

greg carl (49:33.913)
That's a good question.

greg carl (49:54.553)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (50:02.871)
So those are the dangers. So yeah, I don't know, is it a dot com bubble?

I I don't think it's the same thing. If it's something everybody takes it back to the dot com era. But I don't think there was much behind the dot com when they did it and there is something behind this. It's just which one's gonna, you know, pair out or

greg carl (50:15.287)
Yeah. Worst case, so real time, thanks for the internet.

greg carl (50:24.001)
Yeah, we're not talking about the evening times here versus, you know, the dot com bubble here, right? This is like we're not putting out partnering with Yahoo in two thousand twelve, right? the you yeah, yes. yes, it was fantastic. so Moonshots a hundred X plus depending on you know what year of revenue you're looking at. But SpaceX was fifty one to over a hundred plus easily, depending on

zane allyn (50:27.971)
Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (50:34.413)
Did I talk about that on here yet? The company that I was with, that partner with the IO? Yeah, yeah. I did. I know I've said it to you, but I just

zane allyn (50:50.723)
Yeah, okay. Okay.

greg carl (50:51.649)
year estimate that you use. So it's not completely out of the realm, but there's also a lot more

zane allyn (50:56.143)
A little bit more. Okay. That's wild.

greg carl (50:58.627)
I mean from a profitability perspective, I mean from a gap net loss, SpaceX is down five billion in twenty twenty five. But Moonshot is not public, so I don't have to disclose that. They could be burning cash. They could be rolling at it. Probably not, if I'm guessing. Burning burning like the midnight fire.

zane allyn (51:11.161)
it's absolutely burning cash. There's no way it's not burning cash, but but who's giving him the cash?

funded for other reasons. Be a big thing for I mean

greg carl (51:22.839)
Nefarious reasons? Are you are are is this is this is this another Zane hot take? Are we

zane allyn (51:28.213)
There's a there's a there's a lot of upside for a certain for that government to have tick technology come out of there not even just to use it but just from a from a from a from a success standpoint China it's this is the new space race. Let's be real. This is what this is. This is an arms race, obviously we talk about that all the time. But this is the I gotta go to the moon because you went to the moon. No? And so spend the money. Who's gonna outspend you?

greg carl (51:42.297)
Hold on chat. Let cook.

greg carl (51:46.413)
Mm-hmm.

greg carl (51:54.21)
No, I agree. And and j and Google's like, you know what, dude? We're taking the UK path. We don't need to go to the moon. We're good. We're just gonna just gonna retool and

zane allyn (51:59.108)
Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll we'll send a guy to the space station with you when you get there. So it'll be great. Right? I mean, is it not a bad we didn't go to space because it's cool. Well, I it was cool, but we went for a lot of other well, it was funded for other reasons. People went there.

greg carl (52:05.239)
Exactly. Right mate.

greg carl (52:16.035)
You wouldn't have Velcro or Tang. Come on, dude. What are you talking about here?

zane allyn (52:19.179)
I I there was a ton of benefits and we should explore frontiers. I don't know about Mars. I don't think there's a lot of upside in that, but I've been I've like research not researching, but watching things on Mars lately. Like it already had its chance. It didn't work out. Just because how it formed, when it formed, where it is in the un in the solar system, all those have a factor and that's why it didn't happen. So I don't know why we're so hell bent on it. But anyway, whatever. Boys boys can have dreams.

greg carl (52:25.977)
Tell Mr. Elon that.

greg carl (52:35.929)
Correct.

greg carl (52:46.317)
I know if you've seen Total Recall, but even e even even in the utopian world of Total Recall, which is a hellscape, also n not great to be in Mars. Not great.

zane allyn (52:48.771)
Ha ha ha.

zane allyn (52:55.413)
you just you just put the alien hand down and then the atmosphere just gets made. They just somebody just forgot to push the button. Anyway.

greg carl (53:03.745)
Is it that gesture that Musk got accused of making that was parallel to something else? Is that how you create the atmosphere? So so n it's not

zane allyn (53:13.827)
So yeah, I don't I don't mean to make it a space case. Maybe that's a stupid example, but it kind of is like okay. These are like nation states that are that are behind this, right? And then it becomes down to chip manufacturing. So who runs that? And then it goes into rare earth. Like these are all you know, there's several markets tied to these sort of things. And

greg carl (53:17.602)
Normally so.

greg carl (53:33.828)
Good point. You what? Chip manufacturing. That's a good segue. And the next thing we want to talk about, because this is, I'm gonna say it grinds my gears, but this is more of the challenge of the cyclical, and again, leading to the booblay effect, possibly, of the cyclical nature of some of these business partnerships, et cetera. So it was reported NVIDIA's and talks to guarantee roughly 250 billion widtabe and compute leases to open AI, deepening a loop where the same dollars circle between AI's biggest.

this is more from the naysayers outside looking in. 250 billion dollars of compute is a lot of freaking compute.

zane allyn (54:10.317)
Yeah. So I back your AI, A AI successful, so you can pay for my GPUs, but my GP yeah, it's just they won't let us be one big company, so let's just do it this way.

greg carl (54:18.329)
From a pre IPO company is

And y you know, but but

zane allyn (54:26.627)
Well an Apple asked Apple asked to go to China for chips, right? For they're like, Hey, as a fiduciary duty, I need to make Well, okay, right, right, right, right. They they stated.

greg carl (54:32.587)
I don't think they asked. I d I don't I don't think they a yeah, I don't Bold move, Cotton. Yeah. See how that works out for

zane allyn (54:41.399)
You got our chip manufacturers like you're gonna ruin us if this happens. And then obviously the critique that they're being gouging. So yeah, yeah. But anyway, it all affects.

greg carl (54:49.591)
But but you could say that like pooling capital is kind of how you finance a build out that no single company can fund alone, right? There there is a they say, look, if we're if we're really building towards something bigger, and it isn't gonna be changing the human race, no single company can do it alone. if not Walmart would have done it fifteen years ago.

zane allyn (54:58.755)
Yeah.

zane allyn (55:06.605)
No, no, no. And if a nation state isn't gonna just fund it, this is how we fund it in a capitalist society. Yeah. I mean that is why you have capital and capital markets and stock markets and that is exactly why you have those. You don't

greg carl (55:21.123)
Someone hit you with the flip side of it though, right? But when a if a if a chip manufacturer, a chip maker, bankrolls its own customers, doesn't demand seem to start looking like funny money?

If you know, if everyone in the audience Oprah style is getting a car, did you act did anyone actually pay for their ticket to get there at that point?

zane allyn (55:46.367)
Mm. No, the car manufacturer car manufacturer paid for that, but yeah.

greg carl (55:47.833)
Are we cooking the books? As is as we say back in the day, yeah, go get the papers, get the papers. You know, are they cooking the books? You know.

zane allyn (55:55.95)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you make your own customer base. If I make the market, but the market Yeah, my customers are who I'm actually giving the resources so they can buy my materials. Yeah. What what what is really happening here? Well, I mean, economy is nothing if it isn't the circulation of money. So then it's just a conveyor belt. And how do I keep that going? Yeah.

greg carl (55:57.367)
That's the skeptic view.

greg carl (56:14.179)
This is true, but let's look at it this way. Let's look at it this way. This is this is a terrible phenomena that happens a lot in professional sports where someone gets a very large contract. Maybe it's not their rookie contracting work again. If I lose you, nerds, come back. I'm talking sports ball. It'll be okay. we get I a little spice of life, if you will. but

zane allyn (56:29.945)
We gotta give a little simple for all sides. Yeah.

I can argue you can be very nerdy in sports. Like it's there's math. Yeah. So that's exactly right. It's exactly right. It's just it's just LARPing.

greg carl (56:37.461)
I agree. That's why fantasy football exists. The freaking nerds ruined ruined it for me. He used to stuff those guys in lockers. it's just LARPing. Yes, you do dress up, they wear the jerseys. It's LARPing. Fantasy football is LARPing! He's like rolling character sheets in DD.

zane allyn (56:46.371)
Maybe not LARPing. We don't dress up as not LARPing. It's just role playing.

zane allyn (56:56.715)
Over to have a draft in your boyhouse? Yeah.

zane allyn (57:05.859)
I mean is it not? Is it not? That's when people like, you're such a geek, like everybody's a geek for something, bro. Anyway, let's continue.

greg carl (57:06.061)
The greatest hot take of all time, right there. Shut it down. I don't even want to talk about this video thing anymore. That was fantastic.

Exactly. Exactly. but so like not what when the they get their first contract, when they get their second contract with their really good player and they really get paid. I'm using the NFL's example, right? They get the nine-figure deal or whatever, and you just start employing your boys that have no real skills or value, but they're your boys, right? We got to keep up the brand. Well, this is my personal trainer. I'm like, he's not your personal trainer, it's the guy you knew from freaking 11th grade. this guy is a

zane allyn (57:33.347)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (57:40.409)
Yeah. Yeah. You got twelve of those that work for the franchise. Yeah. Yeah.

greg carl (57:44.267)
I i exactly. So now you have this like proliferation of well, I'm paying the boys and the boys are here supporting me, right? It's sort of an ecosystem that I've created here. Well

zane allyn (57:51.033)
Yeah, my entourage.

greg carl (57:54.466)
Are you generating more income or revenue or what comes from that? Like it's a finite amount of resources at some point. You're saying, no, no, no, I I'm I'm employing people. I'm employing people, but okay, but ultimately it's still a finite amount of money. And at the end of that contract, under that term, once you pay the you gotta pay the man, right? You gotta pay your taxes, you gotta pay the agent, you gotta pay the manager. Then you start paying all the boys, and all of a sudden there's very little on top anymore. But what does the headline read?

zane allyn (58:02.905)
Yeah. Yeah.

greg carl (58:22.199)
Such and such signs six year hundred and forty million dollar contract. And ten year cut to ten years later, they're broke or out of the league. It's it's it's just seems like that's that's the analogy that came to mind for me is like this this could be a possible scenario. Now I think there's so much V C

zane allyn (58:25.923)
Yeah, successful.

zane allyn (58:31.065)
Why is he why is he broke? Yeah. Yeah. And then they blame him on his decisions. Yeah.

It's all about cars and women and jewelry and you're like, Yeah, or was it this other thing? Yeah, I gotcha. Hey hey, you could just take this all the way back to MC Hammer if you want a really good extreme example of that. 'Cause that's exactly what took that boy down. But I mean he's fine. He's fine. But yeah, anyway. That's a good point. That's a good point. You create this little market, but it's all contingent on one salary or all relies on one salary, which is being spread apart.

greg carl (58:43.927)
Yeah. No, granted, th these are solid assets. man.

Father Hammer. Yeah.

Yeah.

zane allyn (59:04.975)
But in that analogy, they're not even necessarily feeding back into the guy unless I guess they're buying sports buying stuff. So unless they're buying tickets, they're not even feeding back into the loop. So it's even worse. You can take sports too from this is what I well, I I guess I as a Padre fan, I hate this because contracts. well, Otani's an example, right? I mean, he's got this huge contract, but he's not getting that till the end. The bulk of that.

greg carl (59:16.545)
So maybe that's flawed, I don't but that was the analogy kinda came to my head that's as

greg carl (59:29.443)
Great example.

Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (59:33.539)
That's how they're making saving money. And they're making all this money. They're picking this big bet on them. But somebody's gonna take that contract at the end. And there's definitely players on the Padres that, you know, Dodgers still paid half their salary because these contracts have to go up.

greg carl (59:44.698)
That's why poor Shohei's out there, you know, shooting dice with Ashy Larry, because he ain't got no money, man. He ain't got paid. It's not his fault. It's not his fault. But nobody will reach the the the Bobby Bonilla contract, which it's just warms my heart to this day. He's still getting paid by the New York Mets. The worst contract in sports history.

zane allyn (59:48.942)
Yeah.

zane allyn (59:52.953)
YouTube parachute. I just watched that again the other day. My YouTube knows I love that show. Anyway,

zane allyn (01:00:09.133)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So is that

greg carl (01:00:10.99)
so but that was one of the that was the the warning tale to never do this again. And that's why Shohei is out there, you know, shooting dice.

zane allyn (01:00:14.915)
Yeah, yeah. But are but are we learning that in in Yeah, you're right. You're probably in sports contracts they've been a lot smarter, right? Like if this happens, this clause, this clause, this clause, yeah. We don't really have that on the AI bubble. Well what happens when sorry. Sorry, that the bubble ble what happens when Altman says, You know what? I know I promised you on a handshake deal that I was gonna buy this much and but I'm not gonna buy that anymore. Sorry, hyperscaler and

greg carl (01:00:30.413)
Bublet.

greg carl (01:00:43.392)
Lowell, JK, right.

zane allyn (01:00:47.271)
So when you're looking at AI, and I've looked this even in my own investment world is Am I highly leveraged in AI? Am I front loaded on semis? Am I in the infrastructure bit? Am I looking at energy? If I want to diversify any of those, am I really just tying back to the same? It's all contingent on the same. So it's like you have to be really, really, really careful about it or or or or where, right? What bet are you taking? Because at the end of the day, it's all bet, but

greg carl (01:00:48.045)
Listen, I'll s

greg carl (01:00:57.688)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (01:01:14.711)
And if they're doing a bunch of small models, is Apple right? Is Apple like I'm just gonna build a bunch of phones, give me the semiconductor, AI is gonna be at the edge, and it's not gonna be these giant models, maybe smaller ones, right? Is Meta right? Are they building the right thing? Is anthropic really just a software tool that's like, hey, I'm gonna be in businesses and I'm gonna help businesses deploy? And Altman's chasing the singularity. Like

greg carl (01:01:14.957)
Listen, man, I I

greg carl (01:01:37.08)
It's kind of what it seems, right? And because everything anthropic has done been very purposeful. And they're and it's it's kind of odd, right? And you saw the announce of co-work and the announce of it's like you're kind of how did that happen? Like ChatGPT was the verb. We talked about this. Like chat GPT was the verb. I've not still not heard people saying, I'm clotting it, right? Thankfully. Right. but it is it

zane allyn (01:02:00.034)
so I'll I'll I'm I'm the one exception to that if you've not seen me in our slacks. I'll say clotted. I just just to throw out that I use clod for this. I'm trying. I'm I'm trying to start it. Yeah. Yeah. I clotted that. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll give like star star clod or you know, quote clod. Clotted. Just just a just a disclaimer. Clode. Clode. There we go. All right.

greg carl (01:02:04.567)
You've clauded it cla Clauded. I asked Claude. It is very interesting when you have a name like that. Like people do treat it like it's a like it's a proper name. Like, well, I did ask Claude. I'm like, it's not a person. It's not a person.

greg carl (01:02:20.665)
Claude. Yeah. The it is it it it is interesting, and again, take it for what you will. when somebody like Elon Musk questions your morals and ethics and says you're probably a terrible person. Which is kind of what he said in in in a roundabout kind of way about Sam Altman. they know each other very well and they've known each other much longer than you know, just the past couple of years.

zane allyn (01:02:40.749)
Yeah. Yeah. They know each other. They're they have some history. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

greg carl (01:02:50.893)
Makes you question, you know, is he on the right is he gonna be on the right side of history?

zane allyn (01:02:54.061)
He says a lot of stuff, but yeah, I think hot on Elon Musk, I know how much this is gonna get me in trouble, but he says a lot of stuff. He's definitely a troll. He loves it. He bought it he bought his own social media so he could do it. look, people people follow me on my media. but sometimes I think he th he's a little he can't not throw out the truth. Like, hey, this is I mean, he he alters things with bad logic and you can definitely hear it.

greg carl (01:03:04.665)
It does say words, can confirm.

zane allyn (01:03:23.459)
But sometimes he's like, yeah, Altman's this guy. Like I kind of see some truth in there. Like, he would know, right? And he's probably not pulling punches yet. He can't help himself. Yeah. I'm not trying to say spectrumy, we're all spectrum me, but that's why it's a spectrum. But he's definitely like I think I can you can tell when he's convincing himself of something and when he's throwing out maybe a nugget of truth. It's sad that there's always nuggets of truth and the crazy, but

greg carl (01:03:29.753)
Yeah, he can't help himself, right? It's just there. Like he can't help himself from saying the saying the real thing.

That's fine.

greg carl (01:03:48.526)
Like there's there's signs there, like using your children as meat shields and yeah, saying, you know, not being able to bite your tongue. There are signs there. But the guy the guy yeah, the when the guy that uses children as meat shields is calling that guy morally bankrupt, might want to take a step back and, you know, get a little macro view. But

zane allyn (01:03:56.644)
You can't play the song. That's exactly the best.

zane allyn (01:04:04.109)
Yeah, yeah.

That's the saddest part about this in my opinion. There's like six people that kind of are determining this thing and they're all just we're just watching them all squabble. It's like super fun. We're all in the middle trying to figure out where to where to where to end up. That's probably the the saddest part.

greg carl (01:04:23.597)
Trying to get some chips, man. And I don't mean wavy lays.

zane allyn (01:04:25.527)
Behave, man. Just behave, man. Act like adults. I don't know. Social media doesn't help. If you get in you're going for likes and clicks, you say the things, I get it. heck on the in in trying to promote this podcast, we can't say we didn't throw the clips out there to get the people interested. So I get it. I get it. That's just a taste. I'm not trying to mislead anybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

greg carl (01:04:34.617)
No.

greg carl (01:04:46.477)
That's just a taste. That's just a sample at the end of the aisle at Costco, man. That's not that's nothing wrong with that. That's just hey, you want to try the new Swedish meatball? You bet I do. You're gonna take it whether you're gonna buy or not, right? So it's it's nothing wrong with that. Nice old lady at the end of the aisle, yeah, you go get that. And what do you got over here? ravioli. Give me one of raviolis. That's terrible. You know what? We keep on going. That's all it is.

zane allyn (01:04:56.431)
It's where there's Costco, man. You wander out Costco and Yeah.

zane allyn (01:05:05.933)
Hey, boxes right over there. It's only ten ninety nine. We're having a special today. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

greg carl (01:05:09.589)
Right over my shoulder. Yeah, exact You don't say. How about that? How'd that get there? Yeah.

zane allyn (01:05:16.035)
That's how you got hooked on bang is what I heard. Anyway.

greg carl (01:05:19.355)
that's a sad and sordid tale, honestly. listen, I I watch so we're I'm we're gonna get a little personal here. I've done a rabbit hole of me and my wife have been watching Financial Audit with Caleb Caleb Hammer. It's a fascinating show, and if you've ever seen it, but it's basically people get put on blast for their poor financial decisions. And a very, very special gentleman, that may have served time or not. they were going through his finances.

zane allyn (01:05:22.383)
I haven't seen one in a while, sorry, I just had to bring it up. Bang bang.

greg carl (01:05:47.116)
And saying, hey man, what is this? Because he'll critique any sort of spending. Yeah, he might have been missing some teeth. There might be some meth involved. We're not completely sure. they're going through the list of like, what is this? What is this you spent here at the QT? What is this? I was like, man, that's my bang I get every morning. I was like, My wife just kind of looked at me and was like, What? And then she goes, No, dude, purple haze is is the one. I was like, no, am I? no. I don't care. I don't care.

zane allyn (01:05:48.207)
Like a Gordon Ramsey, but like for finances. Okay.

zane allyn (01:06:05.717)
We gotta we gotta check our key team.

zane allyn (01:06:13.731)
That sucks. Why am I seeing myself on TV? This algorithm is real.

greg carl (01:06:18.387)
It is real. It's coming around full circle. But you know, can't confirm, not a meth head.

zane allyn (01:06:21.783)
Yeah, but I mean, he probably doesn't have bang money. You might be okay. Yeah.

greg carl (01:06:27.031)
No I I might be okay. Yeah, I might be okay. We're still buying cakes at a time. But I'm switching over. Switching over, kids. We're switching over to Ghost. Ghost is better for you is what I've learned. the Welch is grape. It's like what more grape? I'm like, Yeah

zane allyn (01:06:31.767)
I saw it at the dollar store the other day.

Okay. Yeah, I don't mean to I don't mean to dun you. I I I make like sixty four ounces of coffee every day with my big French press, which is this big and sealed, and then I pour it into a container. Yeah, it takes it takes I I like the I don't know why we're talking about energy drinks now though. I don't mind the gurus. Have you gurus, have you seen those? You are.

greg carl (01:06:47.693)
Yeah. Everyone's got their crack, man. Yeah, it's fine.

greg carl (01:06:58.069)
I was assaulted. Zwai. I was assaulted. Gurus, what's that?

zane allyn (01:07:02.829)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you can only get them at the Whole Foods. I'm all, you know, high flutin. they have a light version. I'm like, why? Yeah, yeah, we're where we have the Cyclop cheese sheep cheese. Y'all heard it here first, so anybody has that idea, I'm suing.

greg carl (01:07:08.589)
With the Cyclops sheep cheese.

greg carl (01:07:20.035)
Just the trademark's already out. Like I know it's eleven thirty at night now because we've never stopped recording this podcast. But if y if you guys see a cheese wheel that has a giant eyeball and it says Cyclops heap cheese, send it in. Put it in the comments. Email us, not a bot at betasociety.com. It we just I guess we need to make that email happen now.

zane allyn (01:07:22.083)
Yeah.

zane allyn (01:07:26.519)
All right. That's right. That's right. I don't even know what day it is.

zane allyn (01:07:42.809)
Tell you what, we're we're doing sticker runs for the show, and that's gonna be the first one. We're gonna do Cyclops Chi-Chis. I like that. Just all of our product lines that we're putting out. I like this idea. You heard it here first, everyone. Matt, now you're in our planning meeting for some reason. Okay.

greg carl (01:07:46.851)
Cyclops, sheep cheese.

greg carl (01:07:54.55)
Jesus.

There we go.

My God. My God. Where do we go from here, Zay?

zane allyn (01:08:02.0)
This is our disclaimer. So when everybody goes like, the hill said these things, it's like, Yeah, but he's on bang and that guy's drinking ninety ounces of coffee a day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Him and the him and the the meth head with the QT problem. That's a that's a that's a poll right there. That guy live in Arizona by the chance. Cause I only place I ever live in QT. Well, they have QTs out there.

greg carl (01:08:07.755)
He's all hopped up and yeah, he's out of his mind.

Mm-hmm.

greg carl (01:08:17.031)
good lord.

greg carl (01:08:21.305)
I think it was like St. Louis. I think it was that was like the Saint Louis area. Yeah, they they're they're random, man. It's random. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (01:08:28.583)
So Arizona has a ton of them quick trip. First time I ever saw But you're right. And when I moved to Arizona, I was only there a year, and I came from California. All of the things I franchised I saw, most of them, were also ones I saw in Atlanta. I thought that was weird.

greg carl (01:08:41.059)
There's dude, there's circle K's on the east coast now. Like up is down, down is up. I'm I'm not okay with what's going on. Like it's weird. Yeah.

zane allyn (01:08:44.247)
Yeah. And they're in Canada. Well, they're out of Canada. But quick quick trip was the big I just explained this to my Aussie friend, the signal, because there's a lot of people in the signal chat that are from the east, so they talk about Buckeys, Bucky's, Buckeys, Buckies. I finally went to my first Bucky's like a year ago, two years ago, 'cause I was over there. Well, it was late and the guy got just got in and I was kinda tired. He's like, We're going to Bucky's on, I'm in, like, we're gonna go. They can buy a pizza and a hamburger and I don't know, diapers. It was crazy.

greg carl (01:08:56.267)
Hmm. Bookies, yes.

greg carl (01:09:02.443)
How how'd that how'd that work out for you?

zane allyn (01:09:14.313)
I didn't buy divers. I'm just trying to make a hype that's hyperbole. Okay. So a and a and a kayak. And I had explained to the guy, so wait, he showed like the fifty-four buckies, but he's like, We don't have any on the West Coast. And I'm like, big country, bro. Can't have one company cover the whole thing, even though they want to. I was like, We're all about QT and Circle K. Yeah.

greg carl (01:09:14.744)
Right.

greg carl (01:09:18.979)
But you could have, right? You could have, yeah.

greg carl (01:09:32.728)
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry we don't have a death Yeah. Like sorry we keep we can't just live on the outside of our country, Mr. Australian man. We actually consume the entire thing. Yeah. Texas East, man. Texas and East is is the Buckeys, you know, capital of the world. It's it's really if you look streasily, they're up and down ninety five, right? 'Cause they get me. I stop in my annual pilgrimage to pay my homage to the mouse. I stop at two buckies a time on the way down from Virginia to South Carolina, Jacksonville, boom, you're in

zane allyn (01:09:40.143)
Yeah, yeah. That's what I wanna say. Like yeah, it t it turns out there's fifty states and we're all different. Yeah.

zane allyn (01:09:52.729)
Is that what it is? Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not that I wouldn't go to they just they don't have

In in Washington we have I don't have anything like that. Actually couldn't point to the thing in Washington. There's like a randomly LC seven eleven circle K once.

greg carl (01:10:02.819)
You're in you're in it.

greg carl (01:10:13.848)
Right.

zane allyn (01:10:14.735)
It's kinda weird what actually gets up here into the h in the upper left. I just call that where I'm from, right? I don't think that's very hard to find. I'm all over the

greg carl (01:10:20.057)
You just have Starbucks. Don't Starbucks sell everything up there?

zane allyn (01:10:22.745)
We do have Starbucks, but they're I've heard they're moving.

greg carl (01:10:24.737)
They it's just it's just the coffee and nonsense that they normally sell.

zane allyn (01:10:28.345)
we don't have that many what's the other one? Touch Bros. Touch Bros, which is funny because it's started in Oregon, but moved to Arizona. Yeah. Yeah, I s I sold them another company, I sold them software once. And I went to their first court headquarters. I don't know what this podcast turned into, but I interesting fact about them. I went to the number one kiosk because we just walked out of the old bank they took over and went and just got

greg carl (01:10:34.669)
Dutch bros, yeah.

I don't know that. Huh. Fascinating.

greg carl (01:10:44.717)
Boom.

greg carl (01:10:54.169)
Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (01:10:55.043)
That guy hot me up, by the way. I'm like helping him do an install. He's like, yeah, try the Red Reb Bull. Like it wasn't Red Bull, it was Rebel. here's the heist coffee. Here's this coffee. And like he's just handing me stuff to go. I'm like, at some point I gotta stop drinking caffeine, bro. but apparently the brothers plugged their cart into the city hall there and sold hot dogs and then coffee. And basically stole the power from the city to start their business. So there you go. Okay. Sorry about that. We just went somewhere.

greg carl (01:11:07.895)
Right.

greg carl (01:11:18.861)
yeah.

Get that game, baby. We we've been talking for seven and a half hours. So, I mean, this is bound to go somewhere weird. So it's fine. It's fine. where do we land on the next one? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where to land this plane, man. It might just be in the ocean. We might be doing a a water landing here. But we've covered a lot. We've covered a lot.

zane allyn (01:11:30.679)
You can start businesses and all that stuff.

zane allyn (01:11:39.533)
Yeah. Yeah. Is that a is that a rocket reference for a SpaceX? Anyway.

greg carl (01:11:47.764)
Just a plane crash. So I feel like we're starting to crash. The the bang listen, the bang is getting low. The bang is getting low. Which means I'm supposed to drink half of these in a day and I think this is number two. So rip Greg's kidneys. we're trying to mix it, man. We're chasing it with water. It's okay. Or is it? I don't know.

zane allyn (01:11:49.657)
Landing in the water. Okay.

Okay. All right.

zane allyn (01:12:01.584)
Who's day? We've been here like three two days.

Water saves all man. Water. Get it before the data centers do. That's right. yeah. Yeah, it turns out. Turns out turns out I'm a bag of water and I need more. yeah, no, we've gone all over the place. It's

greg carl (01:12:12.225)
Yeah, I'm sorry, Bezos. Sorry, I need I needed thirty six ounces for the day. Sorry.

greg carl (01:12:19.917)
Yeah. But I guess his nine thousand meter yacht is gonna just go on land, I guess. Anyways. What are you saying? Turn into like a sand crawler from Star Wars.

zane allyn (01:12:26.713)
The yacht to take you to the place. I love the stories. my god.

zane allyn (01:12:34.194)
Sci fi. This is a sci-fi episode.

greg carl (01:12:37.465)
We're all over the place, dude. We're hitting we're calling we're calling fantasy pla fantasy owners LARPers. we're hitting sci-fi. We're we're checking all the boxes, man.

zane allyn (01:12:43.598)
Library.

You know what? It all goes back to what AI is. All I'm just saying is let's just see things for what they are, right? You're LARPing. You like doing in the football sense. This guy wants to swing a fake sword around, hit his friend in the head. I don't know. People do different things. There's still reenactments about a war that some people lost in this country. It happens. We all like to pretend. Was that a was that a wrong take to take for my left my left coast?

greg carl (01:12:52.846)
Yeah.

greg carl (01:13:08.461)
You know, you don't see no you you don't see many people in ac reenacting other wars, do you? Especially like international ones. Like it's just very specific wars. It's very weird. No one's reenacting the Vietnam War. Huh. No one's reenacting that. Huh, anyways. And on that bumshell,

zane allyn (01:13:15.809)
No.

zane allyn (01:13:31.511)
There's a lot of things that flood my head. I'm not gonna talk about. so yeah. So yeah, LARP and it's just what it is. And maybe this is what AI is, would take it back to the Odyssey. Like maybe this is just how we have to live it out. This is where the we're at, and this is where we're going towards. I don't know. We have to make the best of it. But it's interesting. I think that's the most important, not the most important, but the interesting thing to think is watch what the company's decisions make, right? Because it is these giant ones. They're all kind of intertwined. What's Apple's move? What's Meta's move? What's Google's move?

greg carl (01:13:55.737)
True. Mm-hmm.

zane allyn (01:14:01.52)
To maybe kind of see where things are going? Is it a booblay? To some sense, maybe. I just don't think. I don't know. Is it ingrained as much? Who's really at exposure for it is really the question. Are we talking about it because we're invested? If you're just the person on the street that maybe doesn't.

greg carl (01:14:07.353)
Should be.

zane allyn (01:14:24.483)
give money to these companies? Is it affect your life? Where like the housing market did or like the dot com was kind of on the same like you lose your value because you have value in these things.

greg carl (01:14:27.553)
I mean

greg carl (01:14:32.097)
The top seven of the S P five hundred, it's kinda hard to say. It's pretty sizable. Yeah. Yeah.

zane allyn (01:14:37.997)
I mean if you have a four one K you're exposed. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's the danger, right? Is where it starts creeping into in and and why it's a worry. I mean I guess it could also take jobs. I I kind of see that differently, but we talked about that already, but yeah. I I don't know.

greg carl (01:14:54.563)
So let's do let's do little closing thoughts, if you will, right? So number one, number one, be nice to your LLM kids. Always say please and thank you. so when your cybernetic urban is do take over, you're not marked bad in the markdown file. it's it's I it's kinda kinda hard not to be.

zane allyn (01:15:07.353)
You think so? Are you on that? I asked them once. I asked my I asked them if I should be nice. They said you can do what you want, it's a waste though. That's what they told me.

greg carl (01:15:17.355)
Okay. Exactly. And you know what? That's signs of emotional trauma. Like, I'm fine, dude. I'm fine. It's fine. Don't worry about it. I'm fine. And those are the the quiet ones are the ones you gotta worry about.

zane allyn (01:15:26.093)
Actually this interesting take, 'cause I heard somebody say this, is if we don't do it, is that where we lose our humanity? Like we still have to c maintain that symbol humanity, no matter if it doesn't matter to the AI. And maybe that's the difference. What matters or doesn't matter to the AI isn't the point. Yeah.

greg carl (01:15:40.695)
don't use terms like clankers or what what was that stupid term? Yeah, the is that a is I think it is it racist term? I'm not sure. I don't with it's supposed to be bigo bigoted towards AI bots. I don't understand. I'm not I don't use that terminology. just saying that here, right now, Claude. but and you know what?

zane allyn (01:15:54.736)
He's just heard it. Right, right, right, right, right. But maybe that's really it. It's like if we stop acting like humans, then we stop being human and we give in to the singularity. But we still have to act like humans, even if it doesn't matter to the machine.

greg carl (01:16:03.317)
Mm yeah. Let me get to our more basal, you know, animalistic instincts and forget the dignity we once had.

zane allyn (01:16:09.805)
Yeah. If you're just throwing stuff like, pick that up, do this thing and as opposed to like I really appreciate what you're doing for me in this world. Maybe that's maybe that's the secret. I like that.

greg carl (01:16:13.889)
Yeah. Mm.

greg carl (01:16:19.641)
It's a very French Revolution. Somebody's gonna go into the guillotine for that. Maybe it's Clippy. Who knows? You know what I'm saying? Maybe it's not about the AI apocalypse. Maybe it's about the friends who made along the way. You know?

zane allyn (01:16:24.409)
Yeah.

zane allyn (01:16:32.121)
Maybe it's us. We're the problem. They're friends we need to want them.

greg carl (01:16:33.657)
That can't be true. Why would I say that stupid stupid talk? What are you talking about? Of course not. We're perfect. Come on. Nothing else exists in this universe. The bang might be floating my cerebellum now.

zane allyn (01:16:48.335)
This one, this one's this one's gonna be for the this is gonna be for the record books here. All right. yeah, I don't know. This is what the natural progression of what we started gets to, but I don't know what we covered here. I think it's interesting what's happening out in world.

greg carl (01:16:51.385)
It's a banger.

greg carl (01:17:02.507)
Epic two-parter. The only thing longer than the Odyssey in theaters was this podcast split up into two episodes. Bring it full circle.

zane allyn (01:17:08.547)
Yeah. Yeah. Well none of it was shot in IMAX though, sorry about that. So you can watch it on any screen.

greg carl (01:17:14.081)
We do have the four K new Logitech four K, but I'm pretty sure it's getting ready to melt my monitor. yeah, but

zane allyn (01:17:17.707)
yeah. This is in four K. This is in four K. This is definitely in four K. I don't know what we're gonna upload it as, but okay. yeah. I mean next, I don't know, maybe one of these we talk about actual things we're doing with AI. Maybe. Maybe not. Yeah. What we shouldn't be doing. Yeah, like I'd love to

greg carl (01:17:32.835)
We can do that. That'll be a fun one. Yeah. We can definitely do that. Talk about what we're doing and what what we shouldn't be doing. What have we done? Stupid projects. man, maybe we should bring that maybe that could be a nice segment. We talk about just stupid projects. Of just stuff dumb stuff we've seen or heard or done. It's like, what are you doing? Just burning tokens? Yeah, man.

zane allyn (01:17:50.906)
Maybe maybe we get an audience sometime and people can tell us about something. That'd be great. I'd love it. Like, okay, we talk about what what should we be doing with AI? What are we doing with AI? Hmm. Hey, I like that. I'm throwing it out there. I like it.

greg carl (01:17:55.097)
That would be great. Yeah, drop it in the comments. Yeah. Feel free to email us and

greg carl (01:18:04.461)
Like it. Let's do it. And you know what? We might have a guest next time. Just putting that out there. Might have a guest. Might be a triumvirate. If anyone's brave enough to come on here and have the cojones talk about LARP and fantasy players and

zane allyn (01:18:09.871)
We're gonna try to guest.

zane allyn (01:18:17.911)
Get hopped up a mine, you do your bang, and then we just come at that person in the middle and see if they keep up. I love it.

greg carl (01:18:22.003)
Just full crossfire, dude. Just full crossfire. How are you gonna fix this? And just put him on trial? I'm I'm in, dude. Just full McCarthy era, like just yelling at him. All right.

zane allyn (01:18:30.127)
What do you think about the city there?

That's what's on T V nowadays, so anyway. All right. I'm gonna stop bringing it back down. You have any closing thoughts other than that? Okay.

greg carl (01:18:43.221)
No, man, that's it. Hey, be be it's it maybe it's not about the AI apocalypse, man. It's about the friends we made along the way, brother. That's what this is all about. That's it.

zane allyn (01:18:48.345)
Yep. Yep. I like that one.

zane allyn (01:18:53.623)
Well, well thanks again. Yeah.

greg carl (01:18:54.637)
On that bomb shell, I I guess we'll see you folks next time. If you've stuck around for this one, you you're in now. So thanks for writing it out. If you've stuck around for this diatribe, you're in and we appreciate you. Make sure to like, comment, subscribe, and do all the things, and there you go. Content creator word said.

zane allyn (01:19:01.913)
You're in. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're still taking Odyssey recommendations. But anyway, go yeah. Like, subscribe, reach out. Thank you again.

greg carl (01:19:18.509)
So next episode, Christopher Nolan to give us his take on the AI generated Odyssey by Elon Musk. So stay tuned. I've already got feelers out to his people, and we'll get Chris in.

zane allyn (01:19:25.155)
Yeah. Exclusive. Chris Nolan exclusive.

greg carl (01:19:31.767)
Or it might be Chris Brig. I don't know. You never know. It might be somebody named Chris is gonna come answer for these accusations. He's gonna be put on trial one way or the other.

zane allyn (01:19:34.703)
Chris, a Chris exclusive.

zane allyn (01:19:40.623)
I love that. I love that. Chris's take. What's your take on Chris Nolan's take?

greg carl (01:19:44.685)
Yeah. Go on. Defend it vehemently.

zane allyn (01:19:47.695)
No one can say that these shows aren't unique. Anyway, all right. Bye.

greg carl (01:19:51.308)
exactly

Rebidere to you, ladies and gentlemen, as we shuffle off into the mortal coil of podcast.

zane allyn (01:20:00.919)
This is where the music goes.

Did that did that at all stick with what we talked about? I don't know.

greg carl (01:20:05.9)
And scene.

greg carl (01:20:11.277)
Yeah, yeah, we hit the four we the four buckets. And we got some really got some really good YouTube shorts, I think.

yeah, the so when you these links you sent me yesterday, I can see them in Chrome, but they just spin. Like so I can't see the actual videos. It just spins over and over again. I don't know if it's because I don't have access to it or what, but like the shorts, I can see it says Achilles Groundhog Day, and I can see that it says what is the other one? gosh. AI the most human tech something. So I don't know how that works.

zane allyn (01:20:51.12)
so we gotta figure out maybe how I just tie it to you.

greg carl (01:20:58.297)
Do you have to like add me? Is there do you have this as an ongoing project within Riverside?

zane allyn (01:21:02.882)
I built these here I can show you. I guess I can do it. We don't have to actually record anymore.